In a two part episode of Profile the second to be aired next Sunday hosted by Ian Boyne Prime Minister Andrew Holness made his first major interview on Prime Time and second overall as Prime Minister on mainstream television the first being on Smile Jamaica on the same Television Jamaica Station. The Gleaner carried a headline entitled Not Ready for Gays which suggested the Prime Minister was not ready to engage the issues associated with homosexuality in Jamaica and the so called threat levelled by The United Kingdom Prime Minister David Cameron to withdraw aid from countries that continue to host anti buggery/sodomy laws on their books. Many like myself think that Mr. Cameron's statement may have implications on the ground as the perception is that we are being dictated to by powerful nations. State Minister for foreign affairs Senator Marlene Malahoo Forte also of the Jamaica Labour Party had indicated that we will not be dictated to and that we are a democracy. She had also said in her short television interview that: "We are sovereign nations and each country has to be allowed room to work out issues understandably countries with an interest on an issue will bring pressure to bear on others but we are a sovereign nation and we are committed to protect our people need to work out the issues, There are a number of ways that the matter can be addressed if it is a matter that can be dealt with bilaterally then we can begin through the diplomatic channels but the issue has to be addressed from many angles there are issues on the ground that would require the input of the Jamaican people .................. it doesn't matter how many laws we legislate we cannot legislate how people think, I think its time to invest more in educating our people I think that is the more appropriate starting point but it is also important for a discussion to b started in an earnest way to deal with the real problems that arise out of this issue."
The came the million dollar question and issue as posed by Profile's Host Ian Boyne:
Ian Boyne:
"You have talked about continuity with some of the policies of the Golding administration one of the famous pronouncements of former Prime Minister Bruce Golding um... was contained in that BBC Hardtalk interview that famous Not In My Cabinet statement is that one of the policies you intend to continue? there are gay Jamaicans who believe that in the words of President Obama that they are being discriminated against because of whom they love, are you willing to look at the buggery law ?
PM Andrew Holness:
You've asked a very important question .... it's two parts ..um .. continuity is a significant code word for the investment and international financial markets it is used strictly as it relates to ensuring that our international financial partners are comfortable with the transition it eliminates uncertainty from the market and we have used that term effectively. clearly the opposition has tried to make more of it than what it really is but you will note that the recent standard and poors statement was very clear about their concern about a change of government and therefore continuity is a code that they understand very well ..... clearly for economic and fiscal policy .. that's very important, in my inaugural speech it was very clear that I took a pragmatic approach to governance I listed out all the things we have done which we have made significant achievements in which we must continue and I've also listed out things that are work in progress things that we would want to do for example advancing the micro-economic agenda for growth that's significant ..... now let's get back to your question .... I just wanted to raise this continuity issue (interspersed with Ian's push for a direct answer) we have heard the statement made by the British Prime Minister and i have to wrestle with that in my mind as to how to treat with it (Ian - "as a young transformational leader") yep, um .. and let's be clear, let me just tell you where I am, um I'm a libertarian on the social side but I'm fiscal conservative on the economic side, right, so my view on this matter is that Jamaica must meet it's human right obligation and the human rights obligations are set in the United Nations fora by conventions and by an large I believe we have done fairly well in meeting them, I think that ... particularly we have to do more for children, I think so, now .... in terms of civil rights so let's make the distinction there are human rights which are basic rights everybody has the right to life, freedom of association (Ian concurs) and the state must protect those rights and I think our police by and large have tried we have issues no doubt about human rights but anyone looking on our force will say that within the last ten years, I think, I mean we're not there yet but at least we still .... (Ian interjects "our laws still allow them to break into the homes of homosexuals and arrest them") but we're coming as I say .... and I am saying we must ..... um ... at least acknowledge that we must meet the standard of human rights. In terms of civil rights now this is the rights that the country gives in its constitution ...um right across the world there are different permutations and combinations of civil rights um Jamaica has just enshrined civil rights in the Charter of Rights .... and we are constantly engaging in the debate ... what we have to give credit to in Jamaica is that the debate is going on ...
Ian Boyne:
Are you going to look at the Buggery Law?
PM Andrew Holness:
which is what I am .... I'm building the context, somehow you think I am not answering the question (Ian: "I understand what a difficult what a difficult thing that is for a country like Jamaica") no, no, no I want you to bear with me (Ian: "Yes I will I will") I want you to to to to bear with me ....... I have to take the time to explain it, because it can be (Ian: "They're watching us all over the world, not just Jamaica") so let's be clear so Jamaica has to embark on an expansion and deepening of our civil rights that is just as important as improving our economics, how that is done? must be where government facilitates the discussion and government through its parliament must be prepared if these matters are to come before it through its parliament to take action ... now here is what I am saying we have to be very careful, our democracy here must be respected we have a democracy it takes maybe longer than some other democracies to make decisions but we have demonstrated in our parliament the capacity to take difficult social issues and address them, we have done that with for example .... um ....capital punishment I remember that debate um ..... was a no confidence .. it was what we called a a a (Ian interjects: "A conscience vote") forgive me a conscience vote of which I participated in that debate and almost everyone in parliament did but we were able to freely express our views
Ian Boyne:
But you stood in the majority though?
PM Andrew Holness:
No, my vote was not for (Ian: "The parliamentarians stood for the majority?") but but but my issues is if your argument is your parliament stands with the majority of the opinion of the people, is your parliament wrong?
(Ian: "But that is with universal rights, there are some cultural specificities") and I am saying to you that if those but but (Ian: "Certain cultures allow certain things") Ian we just said that, as it relates to human rights, those are universal those are set in convention and we must meet what is set in conventions by virtue of the united nations as far as possible (Ian: "We should ok) then there are civil rights which are determined within the context of your parliament of your your civil society enshrined in your constitution
Ian Boyne:
What if the UN and Europe particularly begin to interpret human rights and begin to add gay rights as a part of fundamental rights?
PM Andrew Holness:
But now you've gone into speculation
Ian Boyne:
Europe is moving in that direction
PM Andrew Holness
But I'm saying that you're still gone into speculation, you know listen we acknowledge um ... the interconnectedness of the world and we are not unaware of the fact that the position is tied to support and aid, of course but the same countries that preach um ... strengthening democratic institutions can't on the other hand ignore democratic institutions and I want to be clear that Jamaica has to take a progressive path but it must respect its own institution in how it gets there (Ian: "Sometimes those two are in contradiction you know?") but that's the beauty of it (Ian: "Sometimes taking the progressive path might need leadership") be clear, leadership can't go without the people, so leadership must, the debate must be engaged, people musts say I am willing to do this or willing to do that I am not willing and the debate must go on, what I want the international community to understand is that Jamaica is growing as an institutional democracy and if you hear how police talk which would be very heartening where a statement was made and immediately the commissioner came and corrected it shows you that institutionally you see things are moving, it may be incremental, it may not be as fast as they want it to but I ask that the support of a process, it is a democratic process, it is the process they have asked us to engage on, support us on that process.
Ian Boyne:
The appeal is going out, Prime Minister Andrew Holness answering the tough issues
Interview ends for part two next Sunday evening at 6pm
UPDATE November 9, 2011
Here is my audio on a Gleaner article entitled "Not Ready for Gays"
See what you make of it.
Also see from sister blog GLBTQJA Blogger edition -
Have a referendum on homosexuality(Observer Letter) ..... but homosexuality is not illegal
Peace and tolerance
H
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